Apple Store Creator Ron Johnson on Retail, Human Connection, and Your Job Search

About the Episode

What if the biggest career advantage in the AI era isn’t better technology—but better human connection? As AI automates more of our work, the people who rise will be the ones who build trust, create memorable experiences, and make others feel seen. Few people understand this better than Ron Johnson, who created the Apple Store. In this episode, we explore what ambitious professionals can learn from how Apple built one of the most trusted brands in the world.

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Apple Store Creator Ron Johnson on Retail, Human Connection, and Your Job Search

[Episode Transcript]

Chris (00:27.295)
What if the biggest career advantage in the AI era isn’t better technology, but better human connection? As AI automates more of our work, the people who rise will be the ones who build trust, create memorable experiences, and make others feel seen. Few people understand this better than Ron Johnson, who created the Apple store.

In this episode, we explore what ambitious professionals can learn from how Apple built one of the most trusted brands in the world. And as Apple marks its 50th anniversary, Ron shares why he believes the future belongs to businesses that create better human experiences.

From shaping the vision for Apple stores to building elite retail teams and launching innovations like the Genius Bar, Johnson helped create one of the most respected and profitable retail businesses in the world. We’re also going to cover some job search-related questions for you, career warriors. I know unpacking some of Ron’s story will be especially useful and insightful as many of you are embarking upon the next stage of your career here.

In Ron’s new book, Shop Different, which releases on September 22nd, that’s coming right up. Johnson shares timeless lessons on leadership, innovation, and building winning cultures rooted in love, kindness, and human connection. From his career at Target to working alongside Steve Jobs at Apple and later leading JCPenney, Johnson offers some powerful lessons on leading through relationships and not transactions.

Chris (02:07.416)
Without further ado, let’s launch right into this special episode of the Career Warrior Podcast, episode four five. Ron, good to see you. How are you doing today?

Ron Johnson (02:18.312)
It’s great to be here. four hundred or five, that’s about the number of stores Apple had when I left. You know, it’s amazing. That’s a lot of stores. It’s a lot of podcasts.

Chris (02:24.382)
my gosh. Yes. Well I think today it’s a special day because so I’m recording this in advance and this is actually the four hundredth recording of the Career Warrior podcast. It’s a very special number, so I think it means a lot that you you join me for this one. So yeah.

We’ll be unpacking a lot of of your story, Ron, at Apple. And I’m excited because Apple’s turning fifty this year. And my opening question for you is like when you look back, what do you think Apple understood about human behavior that most companies miss?

Ron Johnson (02:58.478)
Well, that’s a really good question. You know, I think Apple Strength, it goes back to the founding of the company fifty years ago. Steve and Waz, you know, both of them, believed in the power of simplicity, of making things easy to use. You know, they were inventing the personal computer back then. But so much of a brand is about trust, and trust comes from things that people believe they can understand.

and they can use. And throughout his life, Steve, you know, did everything he could to bring simplicity to these products that they could truly enrich our lives. And if you look at it for Apple, it’s always been about the interface. You know, how you connect with the product is the most important thing. With the Mac, that was the, you know, you know, using a a mouse, you know, so you didn’t have to know code. You could just point and click.

You know, with the iPod it was a scroll wheel. And then with the iPhone, it was the touch screen. You know, but it’s all these things that make things easy to use. And I I think that’s a real big part of trust. So many people make things hard. Yeah, and you make things hard in a lot of ways. They make well, they make it hard. Their policies, their store designs, everything is just kind of hard for people to use. So I think Apple strength is really simplicity.

Chris (04:01.398)
Yeah.

Chris (04:12.93)
They do, and overcomplicate it. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (04:24.94)
Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree with that. And I was just trying to think about how how a lot of computer repair shops and and retail stores were. I mean there just there really was nothing like Apple out there. So I think I think it just it was it was the most unique thing ever. So

One thing I want to ask, I kind of want to pivot to the Apple store and your time leading the company. We have a lot of people listening to this episode who are leaders, folks who want to better their own leadership skills here. And one thing I talked to Victoria, our publicist at 48, is you just you hired way different. You knew every person who was like the store manager, and it just by proxy, everyone was connected to you. So I want to hear about some of your

Ron Johnson (05:02.733)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (05:17.846)
Yeah.

Chris (05:18.776)
hiring philosophy and some of that some of that leadership that you were so good at.

Ron Johnson (05:24.278)
Well, it’s i it’s kinda interesting. I I think, you know, and I really believe life is about relationship. You know, you re lead a retail store. At Apple, we were launching relationships when someone walked in the store for the first time, bought their first product. We are deepening when they came back to get help and to learn more. We were restoring when they had a problem at the genius bar. That’s also true with your career. So every time you join a company,

That interview is when you launch your relationship with that company. So, in a perfect world, the most important person in a retail store is the employee who serves the customer. Well, I had this simple idea when I joined Apple: that if I interviewed every store leader, store manager before they joined, and I asked them to interview every employee before they joined.

Every employee in an Apple store anywhere in the world would know someone well who knows me well. So that’s how we stay small, right? And and the big part of that is, you know, I can remember back when I was in business school and I went to Mervyn’s and I was thinking about joining retail. I remember everyone I interviewed on that day I went to Mervyn’s, all five people, right?

Chris (06:28.118)
Right.

Ron Johnson (06:47.156)
And because I met, like I met the CEO of the company, the president of the company, the head merchant. I always believed I was on the team from day one. I didn’t have to meet them at some point on a store visit or in a meeting and earn their trust. I felt like I was seen, I had their trust from day one. And I think that’s really, really important to employees. You’re launching a relationship, you want people to know that they belong.

And they understand what they’re getting into. And, you know, if I remember that day, it’s been, you know, 40 years ago, you realize an interview day is a really important day in your life. You know, I’ll remember the time I met Steve, the first time I met Steve Jobs. You know, I flew out to interview for a job at Apple. We spent three hours together. I can still feel when he walked in, the first time I was waiting, he was a few minutes late.

Chris (07:26.017)
Right.

Chris (07:38.924)
The first time. Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (07:43.415)
I looked up from reading a magazine about him, and there was this torn Levi with the knee showing. And we went in the conference room and he the sun was setting over the west and he drew down the shades. He sat down, he looked at me with that gaze that I grew to respect and love. But I remember that moment, right? So when you interview someone, don’t take it for granted. You’re launching a relationship with that employee.

That’s really important.

Chris (08:14.242)
It is very important. We have a lot of folks who are about to get interviewed. I know a lot of folks who are listening to this podcast right now, people who really kind of struggle to stand out because it’s competitive these days and just the job search landscape has you know, to put it not to put it lightly, it’s been a mess lately. So what would you say for those job seekers looking to stand out in an interview to make the the experience unforgettable?

Ron Johnson (08:44.11)
I I just think the most important thing to do is to be authentic. You know, be yourself, you know. share your passion. You know, make sure you soar with your strengths. But really just be yourself. You know, when I met Steve, I I I wasn’t worried about the interview. We just talked. And I you know, it’s interesting, I remember it was about I don’t know, six years later.

Chris (08:48.194)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (09:06.541)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (09:11.252)
Apple was being honored as the Bay Area Company of the Year by Stanford Business School and we were at a dinner. And Steve looked at me and says, Hey Ron, didn’t you go to Stanford? And I said, Yeah. He said, You went to business school too, right? I said, Yeah, I did. He goes, Okay. So the point is, the resume didn’t matter. Steve hired me to lead the stores at Apple. He had no idea if I went to college or where I went to school.

Chris (09:33.681)
Right.

But but how how does that work out though? Because how would he know that you were gonna be so good at your role and to develop the Apple store, the genie, all the kind of stuff? Like there must have been something beyond just the

Ron Johnson (09:40.834)
You know, so the the point is

Ron Johnson (09:51.297)
Well, what Steve, what I was told, you know, this was years later, is I had Steve at Hello Love. And it was my kindness. You know, he just felt like I could work with this guy. And he obviously saw my passion for retail, which I conveyed. He’d always say, you know, you’ve forgotten more about retail than I’ll ever know. But I was someone he felt he could work with. Right? That he would want to work with.

Chris (09:54.669)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (10:04.504)
Yeah.

Chris (10:17.196)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (10:20.738)
You know, people want to hire people that they’d love to work with. And so it really is about that relationship you establish. It’s not what you’ve done. The fact that you’re being interviewed probably states it’s what you’ve done. They’re looking for someone that they want to have on their team. And that comes down to that connection that’s really important.

Chris (10:36.353)
Right.

Right.

Chris (10:44.766)
Pivoting on over to retail. you’ve said before that we are best at our busiest. What do you mean by that? And I have a few sub-questions beyond that, but

Ron Johnson (10:55.81)
Well, I I just really believe it’s true. You know, I look I look back at times in my life. I remember when I was at Stanford, there was one quarter where I was playing on a soccer team. You know, I had 20 hours of soccer a week. I was taking 18 credits. I had a really tough schedule. I was volunteering. I had a couple activities. I’ve never been busy in my life. And I got straight A’s. You know, and I always found that being busy

Chris (11:03.638)
Yeah.

Chris (11:24.022)
I’m the same with you. Right.

Ron Johnson (11:25.74)
Well, when you’re busy, you’re always performing at your peak. And it’s those days when you just don’t have a lot to do or anything important to do that you kinda slow down, right? And so I used to tell our store employees all the time, you know, I’m gonna give you more to do because we’re always at our best at our busiest. And in a retail store, you know, the best days were the ones where all of a sudden the day was over and you go, Where’d it go?

Chris (11:54.434)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (11:54.605)
You know, time flew by. I was with so many customers, and I think back and I worked with my team. The worst days are the slow days, the best days are the busy days. That means that the work you’re doing matters. And so I just like to take the mindset, you know, when I say to someone, look, you’re gonna be your best at your busiest, I’m acknowledging you’re busy. You know, I know that. But you can also be your best. And that inspires people. Does that make sense?

Chris (12:04.526)
Yes.

Right.

Chris (12:15.907)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (12:20.611)
Yeah.

Chris (12:24.042)
It does, it does. I’m saying on on a personal level, I

Ron Johnson (12:24.615)
Chris (12:29.14)
I have always been that way and I’ve always understood that. I told you right before we hit record, and listeners are probably tired of me saying this, but you know, starting this this roofing business on top of the resume business, and I just had a baby a year ago, and that that kid’s going nuts. I love him to death. But you know, see he’s a handful and I love it. making music on the like I’ve never been busier in my life, but I’ve never felt more fulfilled and been able to do my best in all of those different areas. but to

Ron Johnson (12:58.702)
Right. But but I think it’s because here’s what I’d say the thing you’ve got going on, which is really important. You’re grateful to have a child. You’re grateful for the resume business. You’re excited to do something new with the roofing. Right? So you’re doing things that you love. And that’s another lesson for people. If you’re busy and you’re not doing things you love, that’s not gonna work.

Chris (13:03.79)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (13:26.487)
Right.

Ron Johnson (13:27.266)
But if you’re doing things the lo you love, you know, bring it on. You know, the more you can do the in many ways, the more you can do the better because you’re having more impact.

Chris (13:35.724)
Yeah. You can still stress out though. I think you can still burn out, stress out, whatever it is. And so just just the kind of counterpoint that I know are kind of going through people’s heads right now is how do you how do you balance that with clean mental health and not going nuts?

Ron Johnson (13:48.451)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (13:55.117)
Well, I think I I mean, obviously, there are limits to how much you can do in a day. You know what I mean? So for me, what was my governor? I wanted to have a a zero inbox every morning by seven o’clock. So as never more than one day behind at answering someone’s, you know, request for help, right? And I would even, you know, do things on my phone during the day. But I found that

Chris (14:00.47)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (14:21.624)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (14:23.23)
was my governor. And if I couldn’t keep up with that, I had to delegate more. I had to hire someone else. I had to rethink how I did my work. Because it’s really important in the middle of the day that you’re completely present with everyone with whom you interact. And that in many ways you’re busy, but you’re not in a hurry. And that might seem like a contradiction, but that’s the the goal here. You want to be present. You don’t want to be thinking about

Chris (14:45.784)
Mm.

Chris (14:49.356)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (14:52.438)
Yesterday. You don’t want to be thinking about tomorrow or the past or the future. You want to be present. And you can be busy and be present. It’s a learned skill. But if you’re feeling anxiety and stress because you’re overwhelmed and you have too much, you got to reach out for help. You know, and that’s your leader, whoever you report to, it’s their job to provide the right amount of work or help you with priorities. You know, but don’t

Chris (15:01.196)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (15:07.8)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (15:19.628)
Worry about being busy. If you’re feeling overwhelmed, ask for help. As a leader, I always wanted to know when my people are too busy or there’s too much. And I think most bosses want that too.

Chris (15:31.385)
That’s good. Love that answer.

For years, whenever I’ve so we have a a mall here in San Antonio called North Star Mall. And for years as I’ve walked past the Apple store, it’s been absolutely packed every like almost every time. Even if the other stores were empty and they they they kind of are empty a lot of the time. and so Apple stores I think are famous for those customer experiences and even what you were saying a second ago when it can be so packed, but whenever I spoke with somebody who was working at Apple.

Ron Johnson (15:42.606)
Yeah, I know.

Ron Johnson (15:49.142)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Chris (16:07.418)
It’s like they gave me their attention. They gave me, you know, everything to solve the problem that I had with my phone or my and it was awesome. So how did you build that that culture so consistently and how did how did you why did those stores say so stay so packed?

Ron Johnson (16:09.517)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (16:14.434)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (16:24.587)
Well, the stores were packed because there was a lot to do in the store. You know, in the early days, you know, everything was connected to the internet. And there was not another store in the world where the products were even turned on. You know, you used to go buy a cell phone, it was just a a blank phone. It was just a cover of a phone. You couldn’t try it. You know, Apple we made every product usable. And so in the early days of the Apple store back in two thousand,

Chris (16:28.046)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (16:31.48)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (16:43.083)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (16:51.923)
It almost served as an a free internet cafe for people and people would meet at the store and they could go online and even if they didn’t have a computer at home, they could do things and that was fun for people. You know, so that was the early days. And then as the products became more popular, there were more people buying products. And then we added all these services from, you know, classes to personal training to getting help at the genius bar to school nights for kids to summer camps for kids.

to having concerts in the stores. You know, I took the attitude, all traffic is good and let’s create an experience, a place you can belong. And so the stores are busy places. And I think people feel welcome at the Apple store. You know, they can go in anytime and find something fun to discover. You know, and I think what makes me grateful, it’s been 25 years now, but like you, when I walk in a store, they tend to be quite busy.

Chris (17:29.24)
Yeah.

Chris (17:40.024)
Yeah.

Chris (17:49.59)
Yeah, that’s true.

Ron Johnson (17:50.114)
But it’s not that they’re busy, people are engaged. They’re either talking to an employee, and you sense this energy, you know, this really great energy between the employee and the customer, which is an art in itself, or they’re engaged with the product. You know, they’re listening to music, they’re trying something new. And and that’s a good thing. You know, you go to a store to engage. You know, you don’t go to just

Chris (18:11.235)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (18:19.553)
be there, you go to learn something. And the Apple store’s done a great job of making a place where you you tend to go and you come out and go, I’m glad I stopped by there today, you know.

Chris (18:22.488)
Right.

Chris (18:28.589)
Yeah. So and I’ve you know, I’m not just saying this, I’ve never really had a bad experience at at an Apple store, but you’ve said that fixing a bad customer experience can be more valuable than just delivering a good one. I wanted to hear why why that was.

Ron Johnson (18:43.383)
Well it is it is because if you’re really for Apple, and it’s it’s interesting, when I joined Apple, we had twenty-five million customers. Twenty-five million today Apple has I last I read over one point eight billion users. Right? But the reality is if you believe what Apple has.

Chris (18:47.193)
Okay.

Chris (19:03.391)
Yeah, right.

Ron Johnson (19:10.707)
It’s got a relationship with 1.8 billion people. And when a product’s not working, or we’ve made a mistake, what’s broken is not the product, it’s the relationship or their trust with Apple. Right? And it’s more important to reestablish trust, to restore our relationship to where it belongs, than to find another one. You know? And I used to tell our stories, you know, when we make a mistake.

Chris (19:25.839)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (19:39.887)
You know, the first thing you do is you restore the relationship, and then you’ve earned the right to launch a new one. You know what I mean? And so when we we were one of the first to roll out NPS, you know, there’s a story about that in the book, and Fred Reichold had invented this in Boston, he was working with Pain. And it was kind of neat that someone would grade you. You know, how would likely will you recommend this to a friend? But then Fred said, no, but we’re gonna let everyone write in a comment.

And at that point we didn’t have a structured way to get feedback from customers. And so then I would get yeah.

Chris (20:13.113)
Yeah. And for you listeners, sorry to interrupt, right? For listeners, MPS stands for net promoter score, right Ron? Yeah.

Ron Johnson (20:19.49)
Yeah, net promoter score, I should have said that. I apologize. And it’s a way to really, you know, compare your user experience day to day across stores, across companies, whatever. But what I valued was the feedback. And I used to tell our teams anytime we had a score of six or less, and the customer wrote a note, our job was to reach out to them the moment I read the note, you know.

Chris (20:30.22)
yeah. It’s amazing.

Ron Johnson (20:47.254)
And I would get sent to me every time we had a six or less store score. And I would send a note to the customer immediately and the store manager and say, you know, Chris, I’m sorry we disappointed you today. My team is going to reach out to make it right. And I can’t tell you how many times someone wrote a note to Apple, they’re upset, they filled out their net promoter thing. And I get a note a little bit later, Ron, I sent you a note.

From the United Kingdom, and five minutes later your store leader called and made it right. You know, because that was our top priority. You know, we couldn’t serve the next customer to restore the relationship to one we we failed. You know, now that didn’t happen all the time, but that was the culture, right? That the the relationship really mattered.

Chris (21:24.633)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (21:37.496)
Right.

If you’re taking care of those escalated customers, think about how you’re taking care of the average customer. It’s it’s like really truly raising the bar. And I mean I’ve had customers before who have, you know, who’ve been upset in the beginning. but my favorite ones, my favorite stories are the ones who they’re upset and then we make it right by just escalating things to the next level. And yeah.

Ron Johnson (22:02.126)
Yeah. it’s gratifying. And the other thing, Chris, the obvious thing, you know, you’re gonna reach out to the customer at some point. The faster you reach out, the easier the resolution’s gonna be. They’re gonna be shocked if you get if they send you a note and you get back in five minutes, you’re already calling back? Yeah, I’m really sorry we disappointed you. it’s not that big a deal, you know.

Chris (22:07.673)
Mm mm

Chris (22:16.892)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Ron Johnson (22:28.734)
But you’re gonna do it, you’re gonna try to solve the problem anyway. Why not do it next? You know, that’s just the thought I’ve all said.

Chris (22:32.853)
Right. Right.

Chris (22:38.263)
So and I have so much I want to talk about here, so I’ll I’ll have to pivot over to human relationships. It’s a huge theme that I’ve been talking about on this podcast for job seekers, professionals alike.

And it’s it’s incredibly important because we live in this world where AI seem seems to be taking over every aspect of our life here. You know, that email that we just got was that AI. there are people getting interviewed by AI recruiters. there is AI supposedly taking over certain facets of people’s jobs and things like that. but human relationships still are king these days. So I want to hear from your mouth why human relationships

Ron Johnson (22:59.426)
Mm-mm.

Chris (23:22.181)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (23:26.338)
Well, they are. you know, I just really believe we’ve yet to meet a technology that didn’t enable. Technology tends to enable people to do more and better work. And technology tends to create time to do something new. And so you look at AI today, you know, general knowledge is a query away. You know, it’s so fast to research.

The question then becomes, what do you do with that extra time that you have? Well, the thing, you know, I learned at Apple is, you know, Apple didn’t believe in, Steve never believed in focus groups or doing a lot of market research. He believed in setting a very clear goal of what you’re gonna make, what you’re gonna do, and then using your imagination with a small team to create something that had never been done before.

Chris (23:58.586)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (24:26.026)
And to do that, you rely on your personal geography, your own lived experience. You have to rely on your inner voice. You’ve got to rely on those conversations you have with your team members. That’s where all innovation comes, right? That all is from connecting with people. You know, so I just view a world where it’s easier to get information that creates time for what’s real knowledge, which is

Chris (24:51.661)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (24:55.66)
what my inner voice brings to the solution, right? And that’s always been it. You know, the breakthrough, whoever, you know, every great breakthrough came out of an idea that someone had. And it wasn’t from Chat GPT. It’s identifying an unmet need and then figuring out to solve that. You know, and so I just really believe, you know, maybe I’m

Chris (25:01.247)
Yes.

Chris (25:21.379)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (25:25.464)
Just too much of an optimist. But, you know, we’re gonna do better. You know, people keep saying, you know, AI is gonna get rid of jobs. And you read about, you know, people, meta lays off people and whatever. But for the last three months, the job growth in the US has exceeded expectations. Because companies are doing well. There’s a productivity boom, and people are now investing in new ideas because they realize the way companies win is you do something new, right?

Chris (25:35.607)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris (25:43.599)
Mm.

Chris (25:47.865)
Yeah.

Chris (25:54.222)
Yes.

Ron Johnson (25:55.201)
So while AI might simplify what we know how to do, it also creates the opportunity to go after things that are new. And so as an employee, you gotta be willing to be flexible. You know, your your job might change, but I don’t think it means that we’re gonna suddenly all be out of work. You know, and and I think the people that the people that look at it that way, they’re ignoring, you know, centuries of human progress.

Chris (26:13.571)
Right. Right there with you. Yeah.

Chris (26:24.493)
Yes. Yeah.

Ron Johnson (26:25.036)
where every technology has expanded, the automobile expanded, you know, so many things, right? The computer, the iPhone, the application, the App Store, AI. You know, we just don’t know how it’s going to change our world. It’s going to change it, but typically it’s been for the better.

Chris (26:33.497)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (26:47.139)
Right. You know, I s it everything you’ve said rings so true. And you know, I’m I’m not gonna lie, I’ve been scared sometimes. I’m like I look at what AI can do and I’m like I’m a musician and I’m like I hear Suno or one of these apps make a song. I’m like, hey, I I was the only one that could do that and now I’ll get this. So and

And then it just makes me think, okay, well what do I bring to the table and like what kind of ideas can I now bring that are gonna be different than anything or you know, something like that. So it’s a shock for I think a lot of people.

Ron Johnson (27:19.35)
Right. Well, you know, but you know that you know, I I tell the story in the book about when we opened the Apple store in two thousand, that was right at the peak of the dot com boom. And people a lot of people might know have heard of Mark Andreessen. You know, he said stores aren’t gonna exist in the future. And there are a lot of people that still think stores are dying. But the reality is online commerce

Chris (27:30.457)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (27:35.161)
Mm-hmm.

Right. You said the opposite. Yeah.

Ron Johnson (27:47.641)
Caused a rebirth for retail stores. You know, and if you look at today, 85% of all shopping is done at the physical store or the online business of a physical store. Right? So it took a while for stores to adapt. You know, like Target, where I was working when I went to Apple, Target originally farmed out their online store to Amazon.

Amazon ran the store from 2000 to 2008. Then Target took it back. Well, now you can buy online and pick up and store. Target uses every store as a basically a regional warehouse to deliver quickly to the local customer. You know, it’s creating more productivity in its inventory. You know, Target’s gotten better with an omnichannel strategy than it was a physical store strategy.

Chris (28:31.012)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (28:43.798)
It took a little time to figure that out, but that’s true for every retail in the world. And every online only store, all these direct-to-consumer brands, their primary growth engine is physical stores. You know, you look at Warby Parker. You know, you look at if you go to the Mall Day, you’ll see AN. That was a DTC brand that’s now a big physical retailer. Allo, Vori, all these people, you know, they’re winning with stores.

Chris (28:56.047)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (29:13.464)
But they’re also great places to buy online. So what really one was omni channel. Right? And I think it’s gonna be the same thing in the future. I I like the word omni intelligence. It’s a combination of an agent, an agent, or what AI can bring with my inner voice. One’s digital, one’s physical. My voice is like a physical store. My inner voice, my intuition.

Chris (29:19.073)
Omnichannel. Yeah. And they

Ron Johnson (29:41.517)
When I bring that together, I create a new level of intelligence that only I can bring to the world. Right. And that’s like omnichannel retailing. And it’s always that mix of physical and digital, the past and the future, how that comes together. Yeah, who knows where it leads. But I think that’s that’s a way to think about it.

Chris (29:51.639)
And digital, yeah.

Chris (29:59.642)
That’s why I’m not intimidated by all these changes when I think about it, you know, and that’s why I hope a lot of people listening to this right now shouldn’t be either. It’s it’s it’s a great time to be alive. It’s it’s incredible. I want to make sure we can talk about kindness here. I don’t think I’ve ever had a segment in 400 episodes where we talk about that or somebody who cared about it as much as you. so in kind of

Ron Johnson (30:18.957)
Yeah.

Chris (30:24.229)
moving on over to this this next section here, your book emphasizes kindness as a strategy. A lot of people think, and I’ve been told it ’cause I’m a I’m a I’ve been told I’m a nice guy my whole life, but a lot of people will say it makes you less competitive. why do you believe that that it’s the opposite?

Ron Johnson (30:41.998)
Well, there’s big difference between being nice and being kind. Okay? Being kind is when you really go out of your way to secure the good of another person, right? But the the way I put it, I there’s a story I tell in the book. I I used to have the privilege of driving, you’ll get to do this when you get older, driving my kids to school every day when I was in town. But I wouldn’t just drive them, I’d take them to breakfast at a little coffee shop.

Chris (30:46.745)
Okay, there’s a difference.

Ron Johnson (31:10.318)
And the other parents knew that if they wanted to, if they were in a hurry, they could just drop their kids off. And I’d throw them in my car and I’d take them all to school. And one day I was with my son Will and his friend Dash. And we were talking and they were, you know, eighth grade. And I said, guys, who’s the best athlete in the class? And Will looked over, he goes, That’d be Dash.

And it was right, Dash went on to play Major League Baseball in the minor leagues, blah, blah, blah. And I said, who’s the smartest kid in the class? And Will goes, Dash goes, I think that’s Will. You know, my son was a really good student. And then I said, well, who’s the kindest person in the class? And they thought about that for a long time. And they came up with someone, and I said, you know, that’s the only person that had to make a choice. You know, Dash, you’re the best athlete, but you’re gifted. Will, school comes easy for you.

Chris (31:36.077)
Nice.

Chris (31:41.699)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (32:02.818)
But imagine, guys, if the best athlete was also the kindest person. And Dash said, that’d be amazing. And Will said, and if the smartest person was, that’d be amazing. And I said, that’s the choice, right? But the reality, being kind is a way to live your life. And it makes people work better, you know?

Chris (32:09.007)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (32:30.346)
And it’s such a great feeling to go out of your way every day. What can I do to make this person’s day better? You know, when I had reports, I had most of my career anywhere from eight to 25 direct reports. Every morning before I go to work, I’d look really quickly. What does Chris need today? What does Jerry need? What does Mary need? What’s on their mind? And I’d when I’d see them, I’d be aware of what they need. What can I do for you today, Mary? You know?

Chris (32:53.315)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (33:00.17)
If Mary did something great, hey, well done. And as Steve would tell me, the highest form to kindness is telling the truth. So if Mary didn’t do something well, and she knows I’m gonna let her know say, hey Mary, Mary, I know you can do better. Or Mary, this wasn’t but that constant feedback, that being in a relationship where you’re constantly in communication with your team.

Chris (33:03.534)
Yeah.

Chris (33:18.701)
Right.

Ron Johnson (33:27.33)
You’re trying to secure their good to enable them to be the best that they can be requires kindness, which is an act of doing something to help them with what they need, if that makes sense. And so I think you know, the last chapter in the book is called Choose Kindness, you know.

Chris (33:41.646)
So it’s service, right? I love that. I d I for me yet it i it is not just being nice. It’s not being kind for the sake of being kind. It’s it serves a purpose. And I think it it is a competitive advantage and it is something that we should strive for in our careers. I think about asking the a

Ron Johnson (33:57.006)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (34:03.948)
Yeah. But you know, the book the book i i i if you’re enjoying this, if anyone is, the book is just a a a series of stories written almost like a novel that reveals I think timeless lessons like this discussion of kindness. You know, and if you look at where that came from for me, it’s all goes back to the neighborhood I grew up in.

Chris (34:17.475)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (34:32.034)
You know, I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis. My parents were incredibly kind and loving. I was lucky as a child, right? But I grew up in an environment where when the neighbor’s husband passed away and it’s snow in Minnesota, my brother and I would shovel their driveway. You know, in addition to our own. That’s just what you did. My mom literally, instead of putting a birthday card in the mail,

Chris (34:40.9)
Yeah.

Chris (34:50.819)
Yeah.

Chris (34:54.137)
But you did. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (35:00.236)
I’d hear the car start early in the morning. I said, she’s driving somewhere to make sure the birthday card gets there on the right day. And she would hand deliver the birthday card to the mailbox, you know? Because you were living your life in constant awareness of the needs of your neighborhood or the people in your life. And I grew up in that environment. And and that became the Apple store. You know, so my personal gym, who I was.

Chris (35:08.036)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (35:25.231)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (35:29.036)
You know, that became the Apple store service model. You know, and I think that’s another thing we should all do is spend time. That’s we talked about early on about in an interview, being authentic. Be true to yourself. You know, think through really deeply what in your lived experience can you bring that’s unique to improve the workplace? Could be your childhood, it could be a previous work experience, it could be something you learned from a mentor.

Chris (35:32.591)
Yeah.

Chris (35:42.894)
Yeah.

Chris (35:49.464)
Yes.

Ron Johnson (35:58.649)
But if we think deeply about our lived experience, that’s the value we bring. I mean that’s what ChatGP does. ChatGPT does. It takes all of this data and puts it together and comes up with, you know, information. Well, we’ve got this lived experience that’s all sitting there that we forgot and we don’t appreciate. And we’ve got to constantly evaluate that and bring that to our life every day to make us better people. You know, and

Chris (36:18.829)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (36:24.163)
Right.

Chris (36:28.973)
And combine it with the the chat GPD stuff or the Omni kind of strategy that can make us so powerful today.

Ron Johnson (36:29.006)
I think it’s really important.

Ron Johnson (36:34.23)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris (36:38.371)
So Ron, I have a couple of questions from our customers at Let’s E Grandma. I just wanna fire off two of these and then circle back to the book because that’s an exciting launch coming right up here.

Ron Johnson (36:44.888)
Sure. Yeah, please.

Chris (36:50.647)
but we have Christine, who does creative operations in Los Angeles, asks, I would love Ron’s thoughts on the job search for over fifty, people over fifty and recently unemployed. Thoughts on hiring this age group and advice on navigating the competitive and ever-changing corporate landscape. Thanks.

Ron Johnson (37:11.296)
Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think fifty is really young in a career. You know, most people have multiple jobs in their careers, right? I think the average person probably has seven different jobs. You know, the longest I spent with a single company really was twelve years. So she’s fifty. You know, she can go do great work for another decade.

That’s a long time, right? And and age is a state of mind. You know, it’s not a physical thing. We all know that. I meet 80-year-olds today that are young and spirited. And I’ll meet 50-year-olds that feel old and tired because they’ve lost their enthusiasm for life. So so I would not be an ageist. I would encourage her to, if there’s something she really wants to do, go after it.

Chris (37:41.615)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chris (37:53.795)
Yeah.

Chris (37:58.66)
Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Ron Johnson (38:09.845)
And put your head down and you can have a lot of impact over your decade of the fifties. And I think, you know, people are open for that. You know, we’re we’re hiring people all the time and they’re looking for people with wisdom, with experience, with energy that they want to work with. And I wouldn’t let your age become an obstacle. You know, and really for some people it might be, but I think for most people it won’t be.

Chris (38:38.127)
Thank you for that. And thanks for the question, Christine. let’s go on over to the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of age. Eva from Blairstown, New Jersey says, How can AI help with my education, especially at University of Phoenix, where I am still a student?

Ron Johnson (38:57.005)
Well, she’s in New Jersey going to University of Phoenix, which is a remote school. You know, I don’t know. I’m not a student. She would probably know better than me. But I would the the counsel I give to everybody, you know, I I feel sad when I see people multitasking all the time. I feel sad when I see my listen to my kids speed up a podcast or a book to almost double the speed.

Chris (39:16.067)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (39:26.413)
To try to get through it so quickly. You know, I think we need time to think. We need time to appreciate, time to observe. You know, I I I I walk about five miles a day. The last thing I would do is put on a set of headphones. You know, I just love I love being alone with myself and letting my mind think.

Chris (39:34.167)
Yes.

Chris (39:46.113)
Okay. And why is that?

Ron Johnson (39:53.68)
You know, I think about the people in my life, about things I want to do. I appreciate and and I think being in touch with your inner voice is a really big deal. And I think that gives you peace. Back to that question of how do you eliminate anxiety? A part of that is having time for yourself. And and I think the the the biggest risk we have is people don’t think for themselves anymore because they’re totally dependent on the outer voices in their life.

which is get from watching too much television, reading too many of the same kind of periodicals, you know, all this stuff that’s going on, we’re losing touch with who we are. And so I would really encourage, you know, use AI what you do, but really take the time to think and learn, you know, on your own the old fashioned way, ’cause I think that’s the way to really get depth.

Chris (40:31.331)
Yeah.

Chris (40:44.654)
Yeah.

Chris (40:50.509)
Yes. I’m scared. I mean, back when I was a student I didn’t have Chat GPT. I had to struggle through writing professional letters and business memos and things like that. And I’d I had to really think about it and spend time with it. And I would encourage every single person to to to struggle through it too and do the same thing. And you can use chat GPT, but not in a way that’s gonna hinder your education. So

Ron Johnson (40:56.449)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ron Johnson (41:13.347)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (41:16.013)
So in your book, Shop Different, it’s coming out next week, September twenty-second. I am so excited for that. why did you write I’ll just start with a very basic, simple question. Why did you write the book?

Ron Johnson (41:28.227)
Yeah. Yeah, I wrote the book because when I look back, you know, I I wasn’t gonna do it, but I I looked back and there were three books that I read during my career that profoundly impacted the trajectory of how I led and how I worked. And each of those books there was a chapter or a thought that

I embraced and it changed how I did things, right? And and I realized that that’s a good way to get back. And you know, it turns out there’s a case on my career at Target, Apple, and JCPenney, which didn’t go very well, that Harvard Business School has been doing for 15 years now, that most of the business schools do as part of their curriculum.

And it’s their one of their best teaching experiences to help young people think about careers. You know, I said, well, if that’s the case, you know, maybe there’d be lessons I could share from my lived experience that would mean something to people. And, you know, about three, four years ago, a young writer who’d never written a book approached and said, I’d love to write your story. And I

Chris (42:23.599)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson (42:40.963)
Thought about it, I said, maybe this is a sign that I should do this. So I said to him, let’s write a chapter. And we figured out how to write a chapter. And we kind of liked it and said, all right, let’s put together a proposal. And then we put together a proposal, and then the publishers wanted the book to be written, and so we did it. And I’m really glad I did. I’m I’m proud of the book. I think it’s a good read. I think people who read it will enjoy it. And I think my hope is that through one of the stories I tell,

Something will inspire them as I was inspired years ago and it will have a positive impact on their career or their life. and so that’s why I wrote the book.

Chris (43:11.534)
Yeah.

Chris (43:22.413)
Was there any

See how I can ask this question, but was there any chapter in the book that it it almost felt I mean, I mean, you we talk about the the business case, you know, JC Penny target, things like that, but I mean there’s there’s an element of vulnerability too. But were there I’ve had authors come, you know, on the show to say, like, I’m not sure if I should write that, but I’m gonna put myself out there. but were there elements that you were like nervous to write about? And were there any

Ron Johnson (43:44.943)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Chris (43:54.971)
chapters that you felt like surprised you after you wrote them, like you weren’t expecting to write at

Ron Johnson (43:59.248)
Yeah, it’s it. Well, it’s interesting. I I was very hesitant to write the book altogether. It felt kind of arrogant to do that. So we started the book, we wrote it in the third person. It was almost like a business book. And I hated it, right? And so then I I said, let’s take a chapter and write it in the first person. You know, and then it was kind of like I said, let’s pretend that the person’s in the room with me.

Chris (44:06.094)
Okay.

Chris (44:15.554)
Okay.

Ron Johnson (44:27.523)
When I met Steve for the first time. They’re at the iPhone launch with me. And then after a little bit, I said, well, let’s add, let’s have them be in my mind. What was I thinking? And the book increasingly became personal. And then it became a really meaningful experience for me because to really think deeply about what I experienced, what influence would I experience, what I was thinking.

became very it made made it really interesting to me. And so the book became much more personal than I anticipated. But I think it’s gonna be a very unique book from that perspective. because a lot of business books you don’t really feel like you get to know the author.

Chris (45:07.598)
Yeah.

Chris (45:14.115)
Going through all the things. Yeah. Yeah.

Ron Johnson (45:14.499)
You know, you might not like it, but this is kind of who I am, you know. And I figured you have one chance to tell your story. You might as well just let it out there. And and it’s kind of like people ask me, you know, what’s your favorite store? And I can’t pick one. You know, I had a chance to

You know, pick the real estate with the teams, design the stores, hire the teams. They’re all kind of like children. Eventually the chapters in the book are kinda like that too. you know, I read the book recently be it goes to print, you know, next week. Or you know, s it it’s just gone to print. And when I read it for the last time, you know, I just said, Wow.

Chris (45:59.908)
Yeah.

Ron Johnson (46:04.995)
You know, every time I read it I like a different chapter better, you know. so so it’s kinda like the stores, you know, y we worked really hard to make every chapter as good as it can be. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (46:07.855)
Cool. I love that. It’s a relationship, yeah. Done.

I can tell. I can tell. I can tell. Well, I’m so excited to personally read it myself. I’ve been I’ve been big into how I treat customers and I’m just I’m an absolute geek for this stuff. It’s kind of what I studied, it’s what I what I live by too. So thank you for writing it. And on behalf of all the people who are gonna read this book, thank you for writing it as well.

Ron Johnson (46:40.079)
Well and thanks for having me on today and I wish you the best. So be careful when you climb on those roofs though. You know, make sure that ladder is well set.

Chris (46:47.083)
It’s it’s I told my wife I slipped the other day and she was like just my gosh, no, why would you do that? But you gotta be careful. Yeah. And and I’ll think about yeah, thank you so much. All right, thank you so much, Ron. And for you listeners, you know what I do. I’ll make sure to link

Ron Johnson (46:57.901)
Yeah. Well good luck to you.

Chris (47:07.277)
the book in the description of this podcast or if you are reading this through our newsletter, you’re gonna have that as well. you’re gonna have Ron’s LinkedIn profile if you’d like to follow him there and his website. So make sure when you’re not jogging or driving to check that out when you get the chance. Ron, any last words here?

Ron Johnson (47:24.895)
No, just thanks. good luck to everybody. you know, your careers are long. You know, just put your head down, do great work, do what you love, and trust that it’ll it’ll lead somewhere great. And I I just wish you the best in your careers, in your lives. And if you get a chance to read the book, you know, send me feedback. If you go to Ron Johnson Shops Different, you can write directly to me and I’d love to have a dialogue with you.

Chris (47:52.185)
Cool. Awesome. Thank you so much, Ron, and have an awesome rest of your day. Perfect. All right, listeners, this wraps up episode four five of the Career Warrior Podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in and I will see you next time.

Ron Johnson (47:56.057)
Thank you.

Ron Johnson (48:08.899)
Okay.

Chris (48:09.146)
Right.