Episode Transcript

Jonaed Iqbal 0:00
I’m not an anti AI. I’m just saying anti just AI, and that’s it like AI is you have to use it very specifically in such a way.

Chris Villanueva 0:13
And welcome to the Let’s Eat, Grandma Career Warrior Podcast. Should you lie in your resume? This is a hot topic question, but we’re going to talk so much more than ethics and morals. Here today, we’re going to cover resume advice for people who don’t have a degree.

Chris Villanueva 0:28
We’ll also talk about how your LinkedIn profile should be different than your resume and AI and resumes. How can you use AI in your resume or LinkedIn profile? And some considerations to think about there. So Jonaed Iqbal was a past podcast guest of mine. We had an amazing conversation about networking, and we dove into this conversation about resumes.

Chris Villanueva 0:51
Now, Jonaed is a resume writer as well, and the thing to note is we had conflicting opinions on what to do if you have a degree or not. No one thinks you should lie. By the way, that’s not what this topic is about me saying that I lied, Joaned doesn’t lie or vice versa. But when it comes to what information gets publicly shared with the hiring manager, we may run into a little bit of gray area.

Chris Villanueva 1:15
For instance, if you don’t have a college degree, or you didn’t graduate from college, how do you answer such a question in your application? So again, Jonaed and I had some different approaches, but I think the result was a very stimulating conversation that we’re going to bring to you today without further ado.

Chris Villanueva 1:31
Here’s Episode 337, of the Career Warrior Podcast. So Jonaed, we make a quick pivot here to resumes. And I haven’t actually talked to a resume writer, like, probably, like a few dozen episodes. Now this is great, but let’s talk about folks who do not have college degrees, or maybe that’s like a hairy, messy situation where they, you know, didn’t finish for whatever reason. What tips do you have for folks who it’s complicated when it comes to the resume.

Jonaed Iqbal 2:02
Yeah. So here’s one thing. Let’s say you never went to college, never stepped foot in a classroom at all. What I would do is don’t even put an education section, because what happens is, if you put your high school diploma, they’re gonna know you don’t go to college.

Jonaed Iqbal 2:16
Putting your high school diploma is like saying, I breathe. You know? It’s like, forget it. So don’t put it out. Focus on your experience. Highlight it well, people will assume you have a degree, and honestly, if they ask you, do you have a bachelor’s degree? Just click yes, because that’s called a knockout question. And some applicant tracking systems, if you don’t click Yes on those things, they’ll knock you out because they put it there.

Jonaed Iqbal 2:37
So do that, and then when it comes just be like, Hey, I’m sorry I learned a little about applicant tracking systems. I want to at least get in front of you, because I had the experience. But I’m not trying to be deceitful. I just know how the I have a little insight into how these systems work.

Chris Villanueva 2:51
So you’re gonna automatically check that box, and then no matter what, you tell them, just for you

Jonaed Iqbal 2:57
Don’t tell them. You only tell them if they ask. It’s their job to ask. It’s their job to ask.

Chris Villanueva 3:02
That’s interesting. It is their job to ask. I’d say that it is a knockout question. It is like something that people will disqualify you for. Yeah, I like the approach to where you said just like you tell them, you know, you’re upfront about it, and then you tell them exactly what you did,

Jonaed Iqbal 3:16
Yeah, yeah. But only if they ask, only if they ask, if they don’t ask, you just go through it, but you’re not putting it on your resume, right? Like, on your resume you’re not putting it so it’s not like you’re advertising that you have a degree. It’s just you’re playing the game because the game is unfair, right? Okay, so that’s kind of what it is

Chris Villanueva 3:32
That’s interesting. So what if they do ask and like, Have you’ve not found that people are, like, have an issue with it at all? Or, like, they appreciate, like, the honesty kind of thing. Or people like, what the heck?

Jonaed Iqbal 3:41
Look, if you say no, you’re never gonna get a shot. The fact is, you need the conversation, and then from there you gotta, you gotta sell yourself. You gotta show that personality. You gotta make it a joke. Just be like, hey, you know, let that emotion out. Just say, hey, look, I’ll be honest. Like I wasn’t getting interviews until I checked that box. But when I started getting interviews, people like, my experience, I’m just gonna be transparent with you.

Jonaed Iqbal 4:03
I didn’t finish college because I focus on getting work experience, but I know the ins and outs. I know how to do the job. Ask me any questions, I’ll be able to answer. However, if it’s a strict requirement, I understand, but let me at least, you know, give me a conversation and then no, do that. Now, the other thing that I’ll tell you is, if you have gone to college but did not finish, just put the college, put major in whatever, and don’t put a date, because now that doesn’t say anything.

Jonaed Iqbal 4:31
Some will assume you went to college if they ask you again if you finish, to be like, Hey, I didn’t finish, but I, you know, because I was focused on work experience and just go through and many of my clients again, they go through the interview process and they’re fine, because, again, if your resume is good and you’re highlighting your accomplishments and you’re selling yourself and you’re talking about the impact you had, why does your education matter? You’re not going to focus on your education.

Jonaed Iqbal 4:52
Like, how many people are like, Hey, would you get an econ 102 would you get an econ 105 they’re not that. They’re gonna focus on Hey. How’d you save this company? $10,000 a month. How’d you increase, you know? How’d you save your team 10 hours a week on XYZ? Yeah, that’s how your resume should be. So if the if you do that, they won’t even have time to ask those little questions.

Chris Villanueva 5:10
So I love conversations with resume writers. I know there’s some differences in style and things that we do. That’s why I specifically bring and ask, like, these sort of questions and I may not endorse, like the checking thing, maybe in certain circumstances, maybe if you’re very upfront and you tell them no matter what, but that’s just the way I kind of, I think about things. I think that’s creative, and I think you have to get creative sometimes, especially with those ATS like this, can be real pains in the butt.

Jonaed Iqbal 5:36
You know, the reason why I do it is because, you know, for a marketing job, and if you’ve proven that you’ve done the experience, like, it’s kind of unfair, it is that it is unfair that. Now look, if it’s like, healthcare, do you have your license? Don’t say, No, you know, don’t say you have your license. Like, when it actually impacts safety and compliance, that’s a different thing. But if it’s like, Hey, can you do the job and can you deliver it? Then I don’t think you’re necessarily being dishonest, because the process itself is unfair.

Chris Villanueva 6:07
How do you feel about certifications as the substitute for educational experience?

Jonaed Iqbal 6:13
Certification? So competency, they show that you’re willing to put times, and oftentimes, some of these certifications are way harder than final exams.

Chris Villanueva 6:20
They definitely are.

Jonaed Iqbal 6:21
One of my clients without a degree. He actually got a couple more certifications. He started getting more interviews in marketing, marketing. So some of the HubSpot, some of the Google.

Chris Villanueva 6:30
II like the HubSpot certifications. Those are good, yeah.

Jonaed Iqbal 6:33
So those are good. And then, you know, in cloud, you’re gonna get AWS, Microsoft, and you know, security, are those industries that have a lot of certifications that hold a lot of respect and there, look, think about it. There are people who can get degrees. They can’t pass these certs,

Chris Villanueva 6:45
Yeah, those can be tough now LinkedIn, how should your LinkedIn profile be different than your resume? I get a lot of mixed answers in this one.

Jonaed Iqbal 6:52
What I have found, what I do for my clients, is it should be similar, but maybe give more info, because LinkedIn is a living, breathing profile, so resume, they’re skimming it, whereas LinkedIn is a web page. So fill it up and LinkedIn, you’re optimizing it for LinkedIn recruiter so that you pop up in more search results.

Jonaed Iqbal 7:13
The more search results you pop up in, the more likely you get hit up by recruiters. So I have had, I’ve done profile optimizations where people get hit up the next day by like, Microsoft. I mean, there’s a luck factor involved, right? Like, it’s a luck factor, but I have had that happen where it should be similar info, but maybe you could give a little more. That’s kind of what I do. But the about, you know, kind of give a good about me and some highlights, but the goal of the profile is to be optimized for LinkedIn recruiter.

Jonaed Iqbal 7:38
It’s different from a business profile, yeah, your business profile is optimized for a customer. In this case, your customers, the recruiter who’s doing sourcing, so they put you in good file. Because oftentimes you gotta be found. If you’re not found, doesn’t matter how good your profile is.

Chris Villanueva 7:51
Truth, I have to ask this question, and I hate that. I have to ask it, but how do you feel about the use of AI, even LinkedIn profile, there’s like a feature to where, if you have the premium, they can build your own about section, what does your stance have to ask?

Jonaed Iqbal 8:03
So if you’re gonna use AI, you have to feed it good data and good prompts. So the big issue is people will be like, hey, write me a LinkedIn profile. No, what you have to do is, if you find successful LinkedIn profiles, you have to feed it into the AI. Here are successful profiles for digital marketing.

Jonaed Iqbal 8:21
Here’s my thing, and then you have to edit it for your style. I’m not a anti AI. I’m just saying anti just AI. And that’s it, like AI is you have to use it very specifically in such a way, because too many people just let ai do things. And there was a company what they actually did funny enough for the for their job description. They put a prompt in their job description.

Jonaed Iqbal 8:42
They’re like, make sure you put banana. So be like, you know, they hit it so that resumes that had like banana in their thing, they knew that this person just generated using LLM and didn’t check it. So it’s, yeah, you have to be very mindful, and you have to review what the AI outputs, and you have to make sure that you go in, because the big issue is for resumes.

Jonaed Iqbal 9:03
Most of my clients have used AI and their lines are decent. But again, it’s like, you have to sit down, and even if you’re not using a resume writer like my strongest ability is not the writing part is the ability to ask questions and get people to open up. Yes. So you that’s what we do as resume writers. Like the writing is like, once you get the info and the data dump, it’s much easier, but you have to get that info outside of your head.

Jonaed Iqbal 9:25
You have to generally think, okay, I launched this new project. What was the impact? How did I make things better? How did I make things faster? What happened? Like, the project was good, but how do I know it’s good? Or if the project went bad, what would have happened? So it’s like, you really have to ask yourself these questions and be intentional about every line. Once you’re once you do that, then it’s a lot easier.

Chris Villanueva 9:45
I’m gonna put that in a quote book somewhere, or, like, flip it like, my ability as a resume writer, it’s not just defined as your ability to, like, wordsmith things or, you know, it’s your ability to ask the right questions, to get targeted for those job postings and to help. People understand what their strengths are in the context of their job search. So there’s so much that goes into it.

Jonaed Iqbal 10:06
Yeah, and you know, when you look at these job descriptions, you see this all the time. People just have job descriptions as their job and it’s like, hey, they do. I, I do? You know, if you put your podcasts like, record podcast episodes, publish them, it’s like, oh, like, what else? It’s like, you know, talk about how it’s engaged. How many listeners?

Jonaed Iqbal 10:22
What are the types of guests? How’d you grow the show? Did you decrease the production process? Go into that so make sure, when you look at job descriptions, be like, hey, what’s an example of this that I did? And how do I show that I did a good job at it?

Chris Villanueva 10:34
Bro, I’m loving this conversation so much. I want to end with two things. Asking you two things. The first thing I’ll just ask, like, what about the person who they feel shy, or they may be in a place to where networking isn’t their thing, or there it’s intimidating. What words of advice did you have for that person who’s unsure, especially if they don’t have that, that college degree, and that may be something on the forefront of their mind?

Jonaed Iqbal 10:57
Yeah, so here’s the thing, you have a personality in networking. It’s not your degree. You’re not going to be like, hey, like, Hey, Chris, I went to Harvard. All right, talk to me. It’s like, Yo, Chris, what’s up? Yo, I really love your podcast. I love that episode. I listened to Episode My Grossman. Like, how’d you get her as guests? I’ve been following her. Like, show that personality. Be curious. You know, be there to like, help the other person. Now, shy, I’m gonna tell you shy is not an excuse.

Jonaed Iqbal 11:23
A lot of people say I’m introverted. I’m this and that. And here’s the thing, introversion does not mean you’re shy. Introverts are more likely to be shy, but that does not mean you’re shy. Introversion just means that you need time to recharge. So you may not be able to network like I’m an ambivert, so I’m neither extrovert or introvert. I can hit up 10 networking events a week. I can hit up 15. You may not hit that, but you can hit up one.

Jonaed Iqbal 11:45
You have to find and you have to think like a rubber band. You want to stretch it, but not rip it. So if you’re shy, just go to one. You know, go to Network event, talk to one person. Oftentimes, the hardest part is getting outside your house. Yeah, and just realize that networking is a skill, and just like any skill, you can get better at it, and that’s how you want to do it.

Jonaed Iqbal 12:05
Do a little like, for my clients that are more shy, that dislike that I’m like, just talk to one person you know. Even catch up with your own network. Like you don’t have to talk to new people. Catch up to people you went to school with. Catch up with your old co workers. Just never know what can happen.

Chris Villanueva 12:19
Absolutely, finally, if I haven’t gotten the results, I feel like I’ve been kind of like chucking around my resume so many different times and I’m not getting the results, or I feel beat down because such and such happened to me back in my home life, or I’m just feeling cut down right now and I’m not moving my job search forward. What words of wisdom slash encouragement would you give me in that situation?

Jonaed Iqbal 12:44
In that situation, I would say, Go listen to the career warrior podcast and binge podcast, like I’m gonna be so honest, like there’s so much gold in career advice. Yeah, on these podcasts, and listen to other people’s stories who are in your position. Listen to other people who have done it and the reason I like podcasts is that you can do it while working out you can do it while going in the car, while going to that. But what I would tell them is, like, look, honestly, all these people you see that succeeded, they’ve been beat up too.

Jonaed Iqbal 13:12
Like, I know people who are making million dollars, who you know, have gotten rejected, and it took them a long time to get what they are. And they they had a rough journey. Most people have not had easy journeys, and some people have had rougher journeys. But just realize that builds resilience, that builds perspective.

Jonaed Iqbal 13:26
You now know what doesn’t work. And the other thing is, the analogy I like to give a lot of clients, Resume and Career searching is sometimes winner takes all. So let’s say your resume is very good, but it’s just slightly under the bar. You may think that your resume is terrible, but meanwhile, you just need to make minor tweaks. I’ve had people where I’ve made minor tweaks, where I’ve switched things, added to, like, an extra line here and there, and now all of a sudden they’re getting interviews.

Jonaed Iqbal 13:52
Yes, I’ve even had things with my clients where I did a resume, they weren’t getting interviewed. Then we made tweaks, and now they’re giving interviews and I’m like, wow, okay, these tweaks. So the analogy I like to give, like, imagine I gave you a Lamborghini, but it had a nail in its tire. That’s a car that’s 99% functional, but because of this little thing, it can’t do its main function of getting from point A to B. However, let’s say I gave you a Lamborghini, rip seats, interior crap. It goes from point A to B. That’s a car that’s functional, even though it’s in worse condition than the other car. It does and it’s getting success.

Jonaed Iqbal 14:32
So that’s what I’d say. Hey, you are that Lamborghini. You are that nice car. You have this nail in your tire. But here’s the thing, that nail is invisible, and that’s what drives you crazy, like, where’s this nail? Where’s this sound? But once you get rid of that nail, and you may have multiple nails, right? Maybe you’re like me, you have multiple nails, you have multiple things. You need to get a lot of nails, but you’re not far off, and there are things you can do to at least make some progress.

Chris Villanueva 15:00
Awesome. All right, that wraps it up for today’s episode. Gosh, what an interesting one. I don’t think we’ve ever covered such topics, especially when it comes to not having a degree on the resume. You know, janaya had recommended checking yes, I personally would go the honest approach, 100% if you get asked something, just tell the truth, 100% but the thing that we both could agree on was certainly the fact that you have to showcase the thing that makes you qualified your experiences, and if you don’t have an education section to show for if it’s something that’s not going to help you on the resume, there’s nothing that says you have to share your education section on the resume.

Chris Villanueva 15:37
It’s your marketing piece at the end of the day. So make sure that you share the thing that you believe is going to get you hired and get you noticed. I also am glad we talked about LinkedIn profiles as well as AI Listen, the job search is changing every single month, and so for you as the job seeker, to think about the technologies and tools that can help you, that’s one thing that I would encourage you to do, because it could be the thing that gets your foot through the door to your dream job.

Chris Villanueva 16:04
Just want to give a really special shout out and more. So just my encouragement for job seekers who are out there, hustling folks who are really putting their best foot forward, taking rejection after rejection. I know it’s a really tough job market out there, so I would encourage you to do what you can to take care of yourself, body, mind and spirit. Make sure that you are indeed taking care of yourself and your family during this time. Know that you are not alone, and I stand there in solidarity with you through your struggles.

Chris Villanueva 16:34
So thank you so much for tuning in to today’s episode. If you are looking for a resume service to partner with to move things forward. Make sure to go to lettygramma.com we are a nationally recognized resume writing service. We’ve been listed on New York Post money.com US News and others as a top resume service. So we would love to help partner with you. I know every single resume writer, and it is a small, lovely, impactful team. We’d love to partner with you. Take care, and I hope you have an amazing rest of your day.

Chris Villanueva 17:05
Career Warrior Podcast. And before you go, remember, if you’re not seeing the results you want in your job, search our highly trained team of professional resume writers here at Let’s Eat, Grandma can help head on over to letseatgrandma.com/podcast/ to get a free resume critique and $70 off any one of our resume writing packages.

Chris Villanueva 17:26
We talk all the time on the show about the importance of being targeted in your job search, and with our unique writing process and focus on individual attention, you’ll get a resume cover letter and LinkedIn profile that are highly customized and tailored to your goals to help you get hired faster again, head on over to letseatgrandma.com/podcast/ Thanks, and I’ll see you next time you.